Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 0:13:06 GMT -5
Hello, I don't like being the one to bring this up, but I've been staring at these numbers since the day I got here, and they've never gotten any clearer. So I'm finally putting my thoughts to the paper. Below I've got a summarized version of the main Saiyan race thread, with the descriptions cut out. This is mostly for reference for later. Also, it looks like overall Saiyans might be overdue for some adjustments. I see very outdated terms like [SU1] in their description.
Great Ape:
{Training must be in conjunction with training away the weakness in the tail, therefore requiring two support tech slots. 11k+ } [x10]
[Note: Important to remember when your last regrowth has been used and your tail is gone. You may no longer have access to this without a tail. So make sure you pay attention to regrowth's remaining.]
Super Saiyan: {110k+} [x13]
[Requires Major Rage for first time only]
Super Saiyan Second Grade:
{130k+} [x14]
Super Saiyan Third Grade:
{Require [SU1] Bulking} {140k+} [x19/x11]
Super Saiyan Full Power:
{Requires [SU1] Ki Sense & [SU1] Ki Suppression} {150k+} [x16]
Super Saiyan 2:
{Requires Super Saiyan Full Power form. 260k+} [x26]
[Requires Almost Blinding Rage for first time. User will be moderately enraged upon use until next level]
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power:
{320k+} [x32]
Super Saiyan 3:
{Requires [ST-2] Ki Suppression. 420k+} [x42]
Super Saiyan 3 Full Power:
{460k+} [x46]
Golden Great Ape:
{Requires Super Saiyan 2 Full Power. [ST-3] Rage Mastery to be controlled.} [x43]
[Note: Important to remember when your last regrowth has been used and your tail is gone. You may no longer have access to this without a tail. So make sure you pay attention to regrowth's remaining.]
Super Saiyan 4:
{Requires a Tail. 500k+} [x47]
[Note: Important to remember when your last regrowth has been used and your tail is gone. You may no longer have access to this without a tail. So make sure you pay attention to regrowth's remaining.]
Broken Saiyan:
{Requires 500k PL / SSJ4 / Gold Great Ape/ Rage Mastery / And extreme rage each time to be activated and used.} [x40]
[Note: You can only access this form when the tail is lost permanently. IF the tail is ever restorted this form is not a reserve form to be called upon nor can while you still have a tail summon upon this form. It may only be used when you have all your tail uses gone. An then itself will vanish from use if you regain a tail through d-balls or through the Alliance machine]
Evil Power Surge:
{110k+} [x15]
[Requires Major Corruption for first time only. Will be corrupted every time that uses this form]
True Super Saiyan:
{Immune to pain. 150k+} [x20].
[Requires Major Rage for first time only]
Legendary Super Saiyan:
{Requires [ST-1] Bulking. 260k+} [x30] / {300k+} [x32] / {320k+} [x34] / {340k+ [x36] / and {360k+} [x38]
Legendary Super Saiyan 3:
{400k+} [x42]
Legendary Golden Great Ape:
{Requires a mastered Legendary Super Saiyan form. Requires [ST-3] Rage Mastery} [x44]
[Note: Important to remember when your last regrowth has been used and your tail is gone. You may no longer have access to this without a tail. So make sure you pay attention to regrowth's remaining.]
Now, my main issue here is that at a glance, Legendary Super Saiyan looks woefully underpowered at the higher power levels, while being arguably overpowered at lower power levels. Why is this? Well, simply put the multipiers granted don't seem very in line with what the canon shows us, while also having some irregularities in the numbers. So below I've outlined both paths in an easy to read table format.
Now, these paths have some weird inconsistencies, though I like the theme that's being attempted. Both paths have a standard SSJ equivalent at 110k PL, though achieved through vastly different means. SSJ Major Rage being reminiscent of Goku's rage at Frieza's butchery of his companions, where as Evil Power's corruption is reminiscent of Broly being affected by his father's mind control ring. However, it seems LSSJ Saiyans need very little training early to maintain their power. A standard Super Saiyan needs both Ki Sense & Suppression before they can master full power SSJ. A Legendary Super Saiyan needs nothing beyond their initial corruption for a very long time.
The problem though, comes much later. At 320k a SSJ2 at full power will match a 300k LSSJ blow for blow. For the next 100k PL a normal Super Saiyan physically can't do anything to stack up an LSSJ, which seems to make sense. Since we see Super Saiyan Full Power Goky + Gohan, and Super Saiyan Third Grade Vegeta + Trunks, and Super Namek Piccolo all fight and lose to Broly, at the same time. But once SSJ3 is reached everything falls out of whack. A normal SSJ3 is identical strength to an LSSJ3, difference is the regular version costs 20k more power level. Except, it also gets a full power version that allows it to blow right past LSSJ3 for seemingly no reason.
This is all illustrated on my chart below. It's rather staggering how much stronger LSSJ is early on, particularly in the midgame at the 100-200k range. However the clear lack of anything higher than a base SSJ3 version ultimate, and nonsensically, makes standard Super Saiyan the superior choice late game.
Attachment Deleted
It feels like there were two theories on how to balance Legendary Super Saiyans, and they both got half implemented. One camp being "well, they are always 100% stronger than their normal versions, because Legendary!", and the other being "Legendary Super Saiyan should be get new transformations earlier, so they are more powerful at comparable levels. But regular Saiyans should end up stronger in the end." It seems like backwards thinking, or at least, the numbers weren't thoroughly crunched.
I propose the reverse be added, make the gameplay balancing theory the following: LSSJ transformations are statistically more powerful than their normal SSJ cousins. However, to balance them out, they have more technique requirement prerequisites and higher base power level requirements. So, with this in mind here would be my proposed new LSSJ Path of Power. I also changed Evil Power Surge to "Altered Super Saiyan", which seems to be the official wiki's more technical name for Broly's Blue/Purple SSJ form.
Alright, so hopefully this revision is more balanced for LSSJ in the late and game and overall. I made its early game transformations more costly, since they are so vastly superior to their counterparts. LSSJ still win in theory at each major bracket, but now there are gaps where a standard Saiyan can pull ahead through superior transformations. For example, between 460k-479k an LSSJ will be outclassed by an SSJ, because the latter has access to full power Super Saiyan 3, while the former simply isn't strong enough to receive their version yet. I also tweaked the earlier versions to be a bit less durable, making them more comparable to Ultra Super Saiyan, due to sheer muscle mass. But, it's a double edged sword. On one hand Broly is seen taking hits point blank with no effect. On the other, this might merely be because his Power Level is simply so much higher he has to need to dodge, and thus it isn't actual a weakness. Either way, as muscular as LSSJ is, it stands to reason its somewhat hindered in speed and thus "defensive" ability.
So overall in the new tree an LSSJ will inevitably become stronger overall. However, they have many many more required techs, which will eat into their support techniques. They also need a greater overall power level to reach their maximum potential. Hopefully it evens out the disparity while still remaining both balanced, and faithful to the lore. I'm open to changes and suggestions, and I'd be happy to hear feedback. There's also possibility more Corruption style events could be added in, though in truth we don't see enough of Broly to know. Bio-Broly is a poor substitute, and didn't actually have any greater transformations. Anyways, finally got all that off my chest.
Path of Power:
Great Ape:
{Training must be in conjunction with training away the weakness in the tail, therefore requiring two support tech slots. 11k+ } [x10]
[Note: Important to remember when your last regrowth has been used and your tail is gone. You may no longer have access to this without a tail. So make sure you pay attention to regrowth's remaining.]
Super Saiyan: {110k+} [x13]
[Requires Major Rage for first time only]
Super Saiyan Second Grade:
{130k+} [x14]
Super Saiyan Third Grade:
{Require [SU1] Bulking} {140k+} [x19/x11]
Super Saiyan Full Power:
{Requires [SU1] Ki Sense & [SU1] Ki Suppression} {150k+} [x16]
Super Saiyan 2:
{Requires Super Saiyan Full Power form. 260k+} [x26]
[Requires Almost Blinding Rage for first time. User will be moderately enraged upon use until next level]
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power:
{320k+} [x32]
Main Branch - Traditional Path:
Super Saiyan 3:
{Requires [ST-2] Ki Suppression. 420k+} [x42]
Super Saiyan 3 Full Power:
{460k+} [x46]
Second Branch - Alternative Path:
Golden Great Ape:
{Requires Super Saiyan 2 Full Power. [ST-3] Rage Mastery to be controlled.} [x43]
[Note: Important to remember when your last regrowth has been used and your tail is gone. You may no longer have access to this without a tail. So make sure you pay attention to regrowth's remaining.]
Super Saiyan 4:
{Requires a Tail. 500k+} [x47]
[Note: Important to remember when your last regrowth has been used and your tail is gone. You may no longer have access to this without a tail. So make sure you pay attention to regrowth's remaining.]
Broken Saiyan:
{Requires 500k PL / SSJ4 / Gold Great Ape/ Rage Mastery / And extreme rage each time to be activated and used.} [x40]
[Note: You can only access this form when the tail is lost permanently. IF the tail is ever restorted this form is not a reserve form to be called upon nor can while you still have a tail summon upon this form. It may only be used when you have all your tail uses gone. An then itself will vanish from use if you regain a tail through d-balls or through the Alliance machine]
Legendary Super Saiyan Path
Evil Power Surge:
{110k+} [x15]
[Requires Major Corruption for first time only. Will be corrupted every time that uses this form]
True Super Saiyan:
{Immune to pain. 150k+} [x20].
[Requires Major Rage for first time only]
Legendary Super Saiyan:
{Requires [ST-1] Bulking. 260k+} [x30] / {300k+} [x32] / {320k+} [x34] / {340k+ [x36] / and {360k+} [x38]
Legendary Super Saiyan 3:
{400k+} [x42]
Legendary Golden Great Ape:
{Requires a mastered Legendary Super Saiyan form. Requires [ST-3] Rage Mastery} [x44]
[Note: Important to remember when your last regrowth has been used and your tail is gone. You may no longer have access to this without a tail. So make sure you pay attention to regrowth's remaining.]
Now, my main issue here is that at a glance, Legendary Super Saiyan looks woefully underpowered at the higher power levels, while being arguably overpowered at lower power levels. Why is this? Well, simply put the multipiers granted don't seem very in line with what the canon shows us, while also having some irregularities in the numbers. So below I've outlined both paths in an easy to read table format.
| Standard Super Saiyan Path | Power Level Requirement | Power Level Modifier |
| Super Saiyan | 110k (Major Rage) | 13x |
| Super Saiyan Second Grade | 130k | 14x |
| Super Saiyan Third Grade | 140k (Bulking) | 19x (Atk) 11x (Def) |
| Super Saiyan Full Power | 150k (Ki Sense/Suppression) | 16x |
| Super Saiyan 2 | 260k (Blinding Rage) | 26x |
| Super Saiyan 2 Full Power | 320k | 32x |
| Super Saiyan 3 | 420k | 42x |
| Super Saiyan 3 Full Power | 460k | 46x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan Path | Power Level Requirement | Power Level Modifier |
| Evil Power Surge | 110k (Major Corruption) | 15x |
| True Super Saiyan | 150k | 20x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan | 260k (Bulking) | 30x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan | 300k | 32x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan | 320k | 34x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan | 340k | 36x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan | 360k | 38x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan 3 | 400k | 42x |
Now, these paths have some weird inconsistencies, though I like the theme that's being attempted. Both paths have a standard SSJ equivalent at 110k PL, though achieved through vastly different means. SSJ Major Rage being reminiscent of Goku's rage at Frieza's butchery of his companions, where as Evil Power's corruption is reminiscent of Broly being affected by his father's mind control ring. However, it seems LSSJ Saiyans need very little training early to maintain their power. A standard Super Saiyan needs both Ki Sense & Suppression before they can master full power SSJ. A Legendary Super Saiyan needs nothing beyond their initial corruption for a very long time.
The problem though, comes much later. At 320k a SSJ2 at full power will match a 300k LSSJ blow for blow. For the next 100k PL a normal Super Saiyan physically can't do anything to stack up an LSSJ, which seems to make sense. Since we see Super Saiyan Full Power Goky + Gohan, and Super Saiyan Third Grade Vegeta + Trunks, and Super Namek Piccolo all fight and lose to Broly, at the same time. But once SSJ3 is reached everything falls out of whack. A normal SSJ3 is identical strength to an LSSJ3, difference is the regular version costs 20k more power level. Except, it also gets a full power version that allows it to blow right past LSSJ3 for seemingly no reason.
This is all illustrated on my chart below. It's rather staggering how much stronger LSSJ is early on, particularly in the midgame at the 100-200k range. However the clear lack of anything higher than a base SSJ3 version ultimate, and nonsensically, makes standard Super Saiyan the superior choice late game.
Attachment Deleted
It feels like there were two theories on how to balance Legendary Super Saiyans, and they both got half implemented. One camp being "well, they are always 100% stronger than their normal versions, because Legendary!", and the other being "Legendary Super Saiyan should be get new transformations earlier, so they are more powerful at comparable levels. But regular Saiyans should end up stronger in the end." It seems like backwards thinking, or at least, the numbers weren't thoroughly crunched.
I propose the reverse be added, make the gameplay balancing theory the following: LSSJ transformations are statistically more powerful than their normal SSJ cousins. However, to balance them out, they have more technique requirement prerequisites and higher base power level requirements. So, with this in mind here would be my proposed new LSSJ Path of Power. I also changed Evil Power Surge to "Altered Super Saiyan", which seems to be the official wiki's more technical name for Broly's Blue/Purple SSJ form.
| Standard Super Saiyan Path | Power Level Requirement | Power Level Modifier |
| Super Saiyan | 110k (Major Rage) | 13x |
| Super Saiyan Second Grade | 130k | 14x |
| Super Saiyan Third Grade | 140k (Bulking) | 19x (Atk) 11x (Def) |
| Super Saiyan Full Power | 150k (Ki Sense/Suppression) | 16x |
| Super Saiyan 2 | 260k (Blinding Rage) | 26x |
| Super Saiyan 2 Full Power | 320k | 32x |
| Super Saiyan 3 | 420k | 42x |
| Super Saiyan 3 Full Power | 460k | 46x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan Path | Power Level Requirement | Power Level Modifier |
| Altered Super Saiyan | 120k (Major Corruption) | 15x |
| True Super Saiyan | 150k (Ki Suppression/Sense) | 20x (Atk) 18x (Def) |
| Legendary Super Saiyan | 260k (Bulking) | 30x (Atk) 28x (Def) |
| Legendary Super Saiyan Full Power | 320k (Impr. Ki Sense/Suppression) | 34x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan 2 | 360k (Improved Bulking) | 36x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan 2 Full Power | 400k (Blinding Rage) | 40x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan 3 | 440k (Rage Mastery) | 44x |
| Legendary Super Saiyan 3 Full Power | 480k (Perfect Bulking) | 48x |
Alright, so hopefully this revision is more balanced for LSSJ in the late and game and overall. I made its early game transformations more costly, since they are so vastly superior to their counterparts. LSSJ still win in theory at each major bracket, but now there are gaps where a standard Saiyan can pull ahead through superior transformations. For example, between 460k-479k an LSSJ will be outclassed by an SSJ, because the latter has access to full power Super Saiyan 3, while the former simply isn't strong enough to receive their version yet. I also tweaked the earlier versions to be a bit less durable, making them more comparable to Ultra Super Saiyan, due to sheer muscle mass. But, it's a double edged sword. On one hand Broly is seen taking hits point blank with no effect. On the other, this might merely be because his Power Level is simply so much higher he has to need to dodge, and thus it isn't actual a weakness. Either way, as muscular as LSSJ is, it stands to reason its somewhat hindered in speed and thus "defensive" ability.
So overall in the new tree an LSSJ will inevitably become stronger overall. However, they have many many more required techs, which will eat into their support techniques. They also need a greater overall power level to reach their maximum potential. Hopefully it evens out the disparity while still remaining both balanced, and faithful to the lore. I'm open to changes and suggestions, and I'd be happy to hear feedback. There's also possibility more Corruption style events could be added in, though in truth we don't see enough of Broly to know. Bio-Broly is a poor substitute, and didn't actually have any greater transformations. Anyways, finally got all that off my chest.
