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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on May 24, 2016 19:17:43 GMT -5
Hello all,
As some of you may have seen in the Cbox, a few of us recently had a discussion on the matter of allies, power levels, and hard caps. It was a fairly good discussion, and I'll summarize some of the talking points for those of you who do not remember the discussion in full or want to go trawling through Cbox logs for it.
My initial issues with the ally system as it currently is is that it effectively allows a player character to effectively boost their PL infinitely, despite decreased gains. And though ally characters are weaker than player characters, this still makes for a huge difference, especially as some allies approach and have ascended to SSJ2 range.
Initially, I suggested a hard cap on allies, period. Though Nasu brought up the point that it would be rather limiting, and after giving it some thought, I'm inclined to agree with him to an extent. However, I still pursued the point in-regards to RoDs/DEs. In the interest of balance, I suggested, instead, a hard cap on the number of allies one can bring with them into an RoD. After some discussion, Nasu eventually suggested the following:
A hard limit of 190% of one's PL in Allies during an RoD, if they are the aggressor. I.E A war part from Blehbarry attacking Earth.
However, if someone is the defender, there would be no limit.
This limit would not apply to regular threads.
I am inclined to agree with the 190% limit, though I would like to see it instituted across the board. However, I think it would be worthwhile to implement Nasu's system as is and adjust it if any issues arise. Given how the current RoDs on the site have ended, I think now would be a good time to consider this idea and implement the first (and possibly final) version of it. However, I would like to stress that we can always adjust if it proves to be too limiting or not limiting enough.
EDIT: I should mention that Combat Enabled NPCs were excluded from this discussion due to their static nature.
The first thing I want to say in regards to this is that I want a cap on how many allies someone can have. Depending on the style character you create, that can be absolutely detrimental!
Now, moving into what's actually being talked about... lol. Why 190%? That seems like such a strange number, why not just 150 or 200? (Odd numbers make me cringe).
Again though, this brings up my point of the kind of character you've created. In nakiyas care, she isn't meant to be very strong, even if her pl goes up, she's got a limited number of offensive techniques to use. This is because she relies heavily on her allies.
Of course, she doesn't walk around with all them all the time, but if it came to war, she'd must likely want them by her side seeing as she works from the background. So limiting that kind of bugs me...
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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on May 25, 2016 6:18:13 GMT -5
Valid concerns. I don't want people to be limited to how many allies they can have per se, but how many they can bring to an RoD.
My logic here is that it helps prevent people from artificially flooding threads of importance. From an OOC perspective, I think it helps prevent people from having too much pull on the outcome of something important than they should.
Personally, I think effectively 290% of your PL, on top of both of your transformations and your allies, is more than enough. From an IC perspective, it makes sense, yes, but we also limit other things from an IC point of view in the interest of fairness. I believe this is another case of that.
And yes, I understand your point about the kind of characters people make. I just think that, from an OOC perspective, it makes sense. If we don't limit allies in an RoD, what's to prevent someone from flooding it with ally after ally, each of which is far stronger than the average player? Like I said, without a cap on RoDs, someone can effectively boost their PL to dizzying heights despite things like BMM.
And I think this is something we should avoid. The site should not revolve around a few players, their allies, and their ability to flood threads.
Also, I don't think the point of limited offensive techniques is valid, though I'm not picking at Nakiya specifically. In the system, barring VTs and ULTs, all offensive attacks are mechanically the same. An empowered sword slash is no different from a beam attack.
Also, as for why 190%, I'm not sure. Nasu chose the number. However, I believe this is because of 70% allies being a thing. With them, nice clean numbers are kind of hard without some PL potential being lost.
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I see where you are coming from, even if I admit I'm not into forcing limits myself. Although, I think we might indeed need to either limit them or at least be reasonable with their use. I mean, I believe a certain amount of allies would make sense if the RoD is a big thing (like a planet invasion or something like that). But if it's a small RoD like a fight of some sorts between two or a small group of people, it'd be unfair to use all your allies.
In this case, I believe we don't have to limit such a thing UNLESS someone makes a habit out of it-- this is a situation where the player should just limit himself. ^-^
But if we'd really have to force a limit upon allies, I believe 190% of your PL would be enough.
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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on May 25, 2016 7:01:31 GMT -5
Reasonable with their use is definitely something I would like to see. But the notion of potentially infinite allies is, in of itself, unreasonable to begin with. And while I would like to think that people self-policing would do well enough, and I think everybody on the site is a fairly reasonable individual themselves, I think that most people who are experienced RPers will have a story or two about a time that self-policing has failed fairness.
I also think it's important to discuss such a limit now, as doing it after it becomes a problem might have serious consequences. The system already favors incredibly strong individuals. Allowing individuals who have hit a "soft-cap" on Power Level to continue increasing it and dominating with their allies only leads to more issues.
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As jie said, I've been trying to think of a fair system for that with him on the cbox. The reason I've said 190% is because, since we have 70% allies that would be the same as :
- 2 70% + 1 50% - 2 70% + 2 25%
Which are more than fair numbers: not limiting and also not abusing.
Also, I've mentioned that this limit is for an offensive, an attacking party sent elsewhere! While defending your home is limitless! And that's an important part.
Say, Nakiya, for example. She wants to attack earth. She would be allowed to bring up to almost double her PL worth of allies! And limitless number of minions. But, again, if she was defending makai against an invasion, the limit would be lifted and she could use all her allies for that.
About limiting the quantity itself... I feel that some characters, like faction leaders of places that have an army NEED a decent number of allies.
Take the Alliance for example. Right now we have 3 characters... 4 tops if we count melonia, and it's supposed to be a place with a strong army and a decent number of people. Now, other positions make less sense for a person to have an army, but I feel like limiting it will make people feel like it's unfair, because, in the end, the stronger will tend to become those leaders.
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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on May 25, 2016 7:33:42 GMT -5
Right. From an IC perspective, it makes a lot of sense. Hence why I no longer want a hard limit per character, rather a limit per RoD thread. I think that rules such as Nasu's suggested 190% for attackers could make for something very fair, while still retaining the sense that they are very large and powerful factions.
Especially since one does not bring everybody to war. People get left behind for a variety of reasons. And, I think, from an IC perspective, people can make rules work with their writing.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
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