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Okay, very first thing to start all of this off. Let's keep it civil. Making threats, getting all mad about it... That's not gonna do anything. But rationally discussing the subject, sharing our thoughts with the Staff? That will get everything much farther along.
So let's go over the issue in particular that more than a few people have expressed concern over.
"The use of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber must have reason, such as an impending Saga or a Threat. Your character must have knowledge of this before the Time Chamber is used. Permission to use the Time Chamber MUST be requested and reviewed by the Admin team."
What this means is that, on top of presenting a case to Kami, the collected case then needs to be brought to Staff, so they can vote on whether or not it gets used. In practice, this makes a lot of sense, the Time Chamber is meant to be a huge thing. In execution... There's more than a few issues with it. Namely, it will rarely ever get used. But let's look over how effective it is.
The very first time the Time Chamber was used, Heavy Weights were negated. This sends across the message that all other bonuses do not count for a grade in the Time Chamber, with the sole exception of perhaps LMB, if you qualify. 24,935 to Bernael. 24,165 to Atsuko.
This is the amount of PL gained, from 5k wordcount, the hardcap for the Time Chamber. Additionally, it can only be used twice per character. On top of requiring a staff vote on it's use. Let's compare with some other bonuses.
Sacred Holy Water/Cursed Water - 10k PL gained if under 100k PL, only effective once. You get the boost alongside a thread grade, so it's not that unlikely for you to shoot up quite a bit as a result. At the very least, you're guaranteed to get half of the result of a Time Chamber. No staff vote necessary, no real restrictions other than alignment and needing to roleplay the pain.
Unlock Potential: Once in life, Guru can unlock the true potential of a person, doesn't matter how strong they are, giving them a 20,000 PL boost. ^^ This right here is the big one, you get a grade on top of your 20k boost. There's no restrictions, other than it only works on your character once.
So what are the problems here? The Time Chamber is grossly underpowered for the huge restriction placed upon it. So what are the ways to resolve this? Well, the need for Staff vote could be lifted, then boiling down to needing permission from Kami, or at the very least a good enough reason to use it. You'd still want to try and collect opinion on it, but it wouldn't be jumping through hoops, the way it is now.
Alternatively; the Time Chamber can receive a huge boost that fits a year's worth of training as well as the severe restrictions placed upon it.
However! This is all my opinion. I know members were expressing their own interest and concerns on the subject, so this one's for you guys. This just catches everyone up to speed, so have at it guys! Let's talk it out. xD
I agree with easing restrictions, not with increasing gains. I'd rather I got the chance to actually use the thing rather than get a crap ton more pl from it. For me it'd be more symbolic, but still. I dunno about staff opinions, I think if they give a glance over who's going in, or what the reason is, if it's ridiculous...For example, Dark death evilman wants to go in the HBTC because he forgot his sandwich in there, then I think they could still say no to it, but otherwise, I see no reason to argue against, you know, just moderate it.
As for the reasons for using it...I think that while it's fine, it should be -slightly- more lenient. Very slightly, but still a little more lenient. Assumption of severe threat should - if it's not an overreaction - be enough to warrent it's use. For example, alien everyone knows is evil sends message that he's coming for a picknick. Now, he could be telling the truth, but if everyone knows he's evil, and that he overpowers them, AND that he could easily be lying, should that not be enough to warrent it's use? If no, why not?
I have many other reasons to want the restriction eased back, some perhaps ridiculous, but for now, these are my best points. Please do not take offense to any of what I have said, this is all merely opinion not intended to insult anyone's decisions or ideas, but instead to perhaps debate the situation, to make changes if they're needed, this is an open to discussion community as has been stated many times, if my opinion makes a difference, then I am going to put it out.
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"Quotes are a waste of time. Actions speak louder than words."
Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on Mar 2, 2016 8:08:05 GMT -5
With a 5k word count to roughly 25k in PL gains a piece, that is still like a ~500% modifier, assuming I did not screw my math up because I currently got up like ten minutes ago and also assuming that your quality modifier was not on any particular extreme. So, I don't think HBTC needs a buff, because that modifier is much higher than can be achieved by any other boost in the game.
And the need for the staff vote likely comes from the idea of being cautious so people do not abuse it, as it was often only used in the managa/anime in times of dire circumstance.
However, that being said, I do find myself agreeing that I would like to see some restrictions eased, if only to make things easier on some up and comers. For example: Villains lack any kind of support. Of course, there is the cursed holy water, which really only serves to be an equivalent to the regular holy water. And then there is the tree of might, which has since gone unclaimed. I also assume its use would start a RoD, which is not a good thing for your average villain trying to get stronger. And then, assuming we accept that the Kold Empire is simply evil which I do not, there's the Empereror's Training facility. Which is also unclaimed and highly factionalized, and factionalization is already a problem among any villains in a group RP.
Sorry if that appeared to be a tangent, but it essentially ties into my greater point: there are plenty of characters who could use that boost to contribute to a healthy site atmosphere, such as using to actually help create conflict. And while this may qualify as the staff's "reason", let's assume it does not. Well, if the restrictions were eased a little, it might be much easier for a Villainous character to gain access. Let's assume the villain is actually smart about it and does not simply, say, fly up to the Lookout and say 'gimme the keys to HBTC or I'll eat you'.
So, to summarize: buff bad, easier access good.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
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Here's my main thing though Atsuko. No one's asked to use it since we imposed the rule of having to ask staff first. You're making it sound like we're going to just up and say no to anybody. You haven't seen our 'harsh judgement' yet so it shouldn't really be viewed in a bad light. o-o
We're not out to stop people from using the chamber, we just want to ensure there is a good and valid reason for it.
For the little guy with little power level, first off I suggest holding off on the hbtc because as your PL grows bigger, you get less and less bonuses, less ways to grow stronger. The hbtc if I recall is always effective so you could be 500k and still gain a 24k boost, which you wont see very much of later game.
But yeah, to sum up mod involvement, it's just to make sure it's not abused. Give us a good reason to use it and there's no reason we'll say no.
Well, we're not trying to paint the staff in a bad light! However, it is a legitimate discussion to have. Because what qualifies as a good and valid reason for it? There was a bit of discussion the other night about Atsuko being kidnapped by Nakiya, and a few people going 'Hey, would this qualify as enough of a reason to use the Time Chamber?', I personally felt like it was.
But I also knew that I'm not enough to be able to say that yes, it is enough of a reason to use it. Like with any other case, it takes Staff review. Now as we're not actually at that point and no one has actually made that request, we obviously don't know how that would turn out. But let's say that gets refused.
What would be a good and valid reason to use it? I believe is another one of the concerns that people were having.
_________
Baalbatos; I understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind that Unlock Potential from Guru gives you 20,000 PL flat out. If you do a thread that's around 5k wordcount? You've essentially got the Time Chamber boost. And, much like with the Time Chamber, you can get that at any time. So if you're at 500k PL (as Komatsu has pointed out), that's a 24k+ boost.
But I do agree that there needs to be an easier access! But if it ends up being decided that it won't be easier to get into, I believe that it could be strengthened to better reflect it's unique nature and huge restriction -- Which no other bonus has, regardless of the effectiveness.
Save for the Tree of Might, which does start a Saga for the planting, and then a Saga to claim each fruit.
Mastered Forms: Super Saiyan [x16], Super Saiyan 2 [x32], Super Saiyan 3 [x46]
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Like I said plenty of times. My personal opinion is that it should be used whenever Kami deemed worthy of use. But majority of staff siagrees with that and believe it requires a good reason for usage. That being the case, I believe we could allow for some oocly knowledge of impending sagas to be used as the "good reason". Icly it could be like the kami or assistant sensing "something bad" is about to happen. This would make the usage more free.
On top of that, PL gains wise, I believe we should just add the x10 gravity of the chamber, group thread and normal bonus on it. I wouldn't miund allowing for weights to be used too and LMB does apply, yes. My thoughts.
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In my honest opinion for the time being, I don't find anything wrong with it as it is now. But that is mostly because of the point that Komatsu brought up which is that, it indeed has yet to really be asked for since the staff review part was put in. It feels a little too fast moving in our decisions to have them change a mechanic they put in, before it is even demonstrated. Though once the staff review is used once or something like that, I would be open to coming back to this topic in regards to -that- aspect. Though I will still address my opinions on the other points below. v
On the side of pl gains, I believe that maybe allowing the weights would be a good place to start, not boosting the normal bonus of it. The smaller a person is in terms of power level, and the earlier they are using the HBTC, the more of that HBTC goodness they will be losing out on late game because of how it works forever. That could be a way to cushion the blow of losing those weights and gravity training time that is gotten from chamber boosting you up so much.
But yeah, I can agree with Nasu where it of course starts with the Kami deeming it worthy of use, especially considering without it, random villains could just jet in there and then... need a good reason? Nah, but anyways no matter what we should always keep the Kami thing in there, but for now, I myself feel like the staff review of it should not be removed or changed. However, I can agree that ooc knowledge can buddy up with Off screen IC knowledge that gets explained in starter posts of accepted HBTC threads. But in the case of the staff review and how its done, I don't see any reason to change it until its used.
I -sort of- wanted to avoid posting in this topic but since I was directly linked, so I decided I shouldn't avoid it, would feel rude of me to go on doing other stuff and ignoring it when people would know I got the link haha.
The fact that the demon queen kidnapped Kami imo is an excellent reason... the defenders of Earth would freak the F*&^ out. lol Them coming to get you back, imo would also open a RoD thread because Nakiya isn't about to let an asset like Kami go so easily. On the same tolken, what is stopping people from just straight up coming after you, why risk a day when the Kami could be in serious trouble? Thats a decision I think should be made IC and not OOC just because people want power level you know?
As for Guru being able to grant an instant 20k boost, same kind of rules apply. He's not just going to boost everyone who asks willy nilly. He's going to have a damn good reason to do it. Canonly, he only gave the X fighters and Dende their boost because planet Namek was in trouble!
Compared to Nakiya as the demon queen, the cursed water casts a dark influence over those that drink it, so the more people she corrupts with it, the larger her army grows.
So really, it all comes down to needing a good IC reason to give others these boosts.
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I personally agree with Nasu on everything he had to say and feel like that's a good way to resolve the potential issues with the Time Chamber and it's usage.
Also I do still agree that the Time Chamber should have weights work. You can only use it twice per character anyway, and in light of that I think having LMB work with the Time Chamber is fine, too. Because while yes, that would give potentially "massive gains" for early game, that means they won't have the significant boost for late game. So that's a balancing factor in and of itself.
People would need to carefully consider the use of the Time Chamber because of that.
So in summary; Nasu's suggestions look perfect to me. It's a compromise that I feel everyone can agree with. As for the effects of the Time Chamber; it stays mostly the same: 5,000 wordcount limit Wordcount gains multiplied by five. 10x Gravity boost Weights/LMB (if applicable)
Unless there's anything else that needs to be discussed, I think we're good to start a poll? Though I want to hear thoughts and make sure everyone is on the same page, first!
Mastered Forms: Super Saiyan [x16], Super Saiyan 2 [x32], Super Saiyan 3 [x46]
Mastered God Forms: Super Saiyan God [x56], Super Saiyan Blue [x60]
Afterlife: Makaioken [x2-x10]
Advanced Scouter (Red), Perfect Medical Machine,
Training Dojo, Martial Arts School,
Palace of the King (Estate 75%)
Planet Yasai
Mothership (Star Javelin) +x2 Cargo Bay Adjustment
E.S. (Heaven's Arrow) +x2 Cargo Bay + Stealth
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Korin's Tower: The sacred water (+20% Gains wit weights, can't use a transformation or powerup to do this however. -note- Korin never sleeps so you'll have to keep sharp, you'll wear him down eventually.
And the thing is, Korin could be an npc that people would have to climb the tower (2,000 word minimum) Just to get to the tower.
Korin would be an immortal demi-god so he wouldn't be able to be killed.
it would open up a new job: Korin's Assistant Desc: This is a warrior which has earned the right to guard the tower from evil and help returning people who did the sacred water quest with senzu beans to heal them.
Also it would open up a whole thing for herbs....
saffron:
Arrow Root:
Zatar: description: will allow your speed enhancing moves have 50% more effiency
Fenugreek: description: allows better focus.
Sumac Berry: description: sweet and full of minerals, strength and endurance go up by 15% for the battle once administered –Must be administered in med gun-
Coriander: description: increases speed and strength by 20% for the remainder of the battle once administered to the user
Shallots:
Charnsuka: description: increases hand to hand combat attack strength (straight melee) by +5% once a battle.
Mullen: description: manipulates ki to defense, causing the flesh to be impenetrable by weapons, even gunfire. Makes the body like rubber for the duration of battle. Defense is raised
Thats just an example.
The user could visit Korins Tower after doing the trial to get herbs and beans, (ESF can go anytime to get beans or herbs) -Limits? Anyone?-
Base [+ x1/x0 Perm], Mastered Power [x6/x5], Great Ape (controlled) [x11/x10], Super Saiyan Full Power [x16/x15], Super Saiyan Third Grade [x19/x10], Super Saiyan 2 [x26/x25]
Mansion(50%), 100x Gravity Machine, Jian, 20% Shop, Martial Arts School/Dojo, X2 Sensu Bean, x2 Perfect Medical Machine, All Energy Capsule S, Unique Capsule
The Lookout (Mansion + Allied Edifice)
CHARACTER SHEET
APPLICATION
TRACKER
Soy School [AD - ADVANCED]
Lightning Blade Arts School [AD - Master]
about Jie Shan Lan Dian
"Quotes are a waste of time. Actions speak louder than words."
Korin's Tower: The sacred water (+20% Gains wit weights, can't use a transformation or powerup to do this however. -note- Korin never sleeps so you'll have to keep sharp, you'll wear him down eventually.
And the thing is, Korin could be an npc that people would have to climb the tower (2,000 word minimum) Just to get to the tower.
Korin would be an immortal demi-god so he wouldn't be able to be killed.
it would open up a new job: Korin's Assistant Desc: This is a warrior which has earned the right to guard the tower from evil and help returning people who did the sacred water quest with senzu beans to heal them.
Also it would open up a whole thing for herbs....
saffron:
Arrow Root:
Zatar: description: will allow your speed enhancing moves have 50% more effiency
Fenugreek: description: allows better focus.
Sumac Berry: description: sweet and full of minerals, strength and endurance go up by 15% for the battle once administered –Must be administered in med gun-
Coriander: description: increases speed and strength by 20% for the remainder of the battle once administered to the user
Shallots:
Charnsuka: description: increases hand to hand combat attack strength (straight melee) by +5% once a battle.
Mullen: description: manipulates ki to defense, causing the flesh to be impenetrable by weapons, even gunfire. Makes the body like rubber for the duration of battle. Defense is raised
Thats just an example.
The user could visit Korins Tower after doing the trial to get herbs and beans, (ESF can go anytime to get beans or herbs) -Limits? Anyone?-
?
and maybe put something in for evil people...
It seems restricting
I find this to be rather.. cumbersome. I don't think that it's neccesary to add another position like this at this point.
Also, on the subject of herbs: I really don't think it has a point or is needed. It would just add another layer of needless complexity to the combat system, in my opinion.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
Also, ask me about my martial arts school: the Lightning Blade Arts!
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Them coming to get you back, imo would also open a RoD thread because Nakiya isn't about to let an asset like Kami go so easily. 
