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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on Feb 26, 2016 10:58:35 GMT -5
Hello all,
While the system itself is relatively balanced and works together well, there is, in my opinion, a stark imbalance that I feel needs addressing. Already, the system favors those of much higher PL, though there are answers to that in the system, such as the Afterimage technique-line and charging. Which, in my opinion again, is a perfectly fine and even good solution to the issue. However, there is one thing that really breaks the balance.
That is, the rule, that a person with more than twice the PL of their opponent may make two actions in a turn. I was recently made aware of this rule, but I'd like to stress that this is not me complaining about the rule because I was on the receiving end of it. Rather, it is a genuine balance concern.
As it stands, if somebody is fighting someone who has double or greater than double PL of a foe, they already have a much higher advantage over their foe, whether it be through more techs, a higher base PL, or transformations. I think the rule, as it currently stands, adds needless complexity to PvP and only serves to allow higher PL fighters to more soundly trounce lower PL members.
Not to mention, it also makes group PvP a headache, unless each person squares off into their own seperate thread or people can reach a unanimous agreement on who is fighting who, and even then that is an issue, as the tempation to save your much weaker ally from a foe you stand toe to toe with will always be there. And, there is the question of how it interacts with stamina.
While I understand the rules is there to show the difference between the two fighters, I think the system already handles that in the form of more experienced characters having access to the following: stamina, techs, recovery items, and transformation. As it stands, I think the rules is unneeded.
So, to summarize: I think the rule should be removed. Threads currently making use of this rule can be grandfathered in, but subsequent threads should not make use of it.
Thank you for reading.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
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LoL well, when you put it like that. It does seem like a craptacular rule doesn't it XD *high fives Jie Shan* yeh, I can agree with taking that off. Not something I even would of taken advantage of anyways if the situation ever came up.
On one hand, I kinda agree. On the other hand, not so much. Usually if you're going after someone that much more powerful, you have people backing you up, right? Use the Lookout Saga as a reference. Nasu got ganged up on pretty hard, even with Komatsu and others there. He had the advantage with Martial Arts and generally high PL, of course. But what really gave him an advantage was being able to attack twice.
Even then, he took enough damage to be nearly killed (thus earning a Zenkai) as well as losing his tail. However. Maybe something can be put in for say... If the group against the single greater power is above a certain threshold, no more two actions per round? Because once you hit the right marks, plowing through great numbers of small fry isn't exactly difficult. So it's an aspect that I like in that regard.
In terms of balancing, however. I understand where you're coming from. But I think it really just stalls the inevitable unless you have a competent group working together to really hurt someone that's on a much higher field. Raditz was not very gentle on Goku or Piccolo. But with the two working together (and then Gohan in the mix too), he was pretty hard pressed to keep up with all that.
So I'm in favor of a caveat being added to the rule so that groups can overcome a single warrior's strength and skill. But otherwise I think the rule should stay in because it does reflect the feats that characters became capable of in Frieza Saga alone. Thoughts?
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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on Feb 26, 2016 15:13:38 GMT -5
I do understand your point, Atsuku, and I appreciate your willingness to have a dialogue on this.
However, I still think the two actions per round round is just imbalanced. Yes, I agree it is likely that several people are going to go after one big target. However, how many people go into a Saga alone? To continue using Nasu as an example, do we have to account for his allies as well? For example, Anthren was at roughly 120k. I think it's just adding more needless complexity.
And, I think at a certain point we need to seperate what happens in the anime/manga from game balance. The two are already hard enough to marry. While it does make a certain degree of sense from an in-universe perspective, certain things need to give for the game aspects to remain fair.
I still maintain that there is balance built into the system already, just not with two action per round. Though I like your example with groups, I think there's an answer there already: the strong person can simply pick off the weak until their two actions are returned, not accounting for any help from their allies. And after that point, they simply steamroll.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
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That would be a part of battle tactics, yes. Let's say for argument's sake... Nasu and Jie Shan fight Komatsu. Komatsu has Martial Arts and Mastered Super Saiyan. Nasu and Jie Shan both have... Basic Super Saiyan and equivalent training.
If it was just a one on one duel. Yeah, he could just pull off two actions per round. But with them working together? That's pretty steep, he'd be reduced to just one action, which means that he'd be taking significant damage unless he goes entirely on the defensive. Which is a balancing factor to consider as well.
So again, for argument's sake, let's say Nasu is the weaker of the pair. Komatsu targets him primarily, that leaves him wide open to counterattack by Jie Shan. Provided he doesn't opt to just help Nasu, of course. If Komatsu lasts long enough to take one of them down, I think he'd earn the right to steamroll at that point, as his power does reflect that and he's probably more than a little worse for wear at that point.
However, this caveat is just a compromise from my perspective; at the end of the day if two actions per round is deemed too broken? I'm fine with it being removed. I just do think that it makes a lot of sense from DBZ Universe logic.
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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on Feb 26, 2016 15:35:15 GMT -5
And I agree that it makes a lot of sense from an in-universe perspective, I really do. I just think in the vast majority of cases, outside of ideal conditions, two actions per turn might be a bit much from a design and balance perspective.
Still, I appreciate your comments on this idea, as it's always a good thing to have some contrarian view points.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
Also, ask me about my martial arts school: the Lightning Blade Arts!
With current rules making it the less stamina you have makes it easier for you to die to a single attack I think if anything if someone took advantage of both actions per round they'd be opening themselves more for the weaker people to hurt them as well. Given now your stamina current remainign can depend how strong a attack you can take without dying. As in 0 stamina now means you will die from a attack anythign above 50% your own pl.
AS well as do keep in mind if even ONE opponenet is above the 50% the big guys pl he can no longer do 2 actions per turn. So its only in effect when its a bunch of people way weaker then the big guy coming in if I read it correctly. So I think its fine as is.
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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on Feb 26, 2016 20:01:22 GMT -5
I disagree. Stronger characters have more stamina after a certain threshold, and people are approaching that. If some one with 5 stamina used both actions, they could still comfortably hold that three out of five, be defensible, and hold on until they're at five again, while blocking and dodging most weaker attacks thrown their way.
Edit: to add on to my point: I would be more inclined to agree with you, Jarvis, if stamina capped at 3. But the fact that it increases with further benefits makes me inclined to say that an extra action is icing on a cake baked for higher tier players.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
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I really don't see much of a point to remove it. If your enemies don't even have a ally that equals 51% of the targets power level their is likely gonna be the idea they were going in expecting a bad time. Now keep in mind you only need one ally at 51% to break that power gap and take away their ability to do 2 actions. An its only in effect for the one enemy or ally that has that high pl enough to out match all otehrs. But the second one person joins thats above that pl req they lose it . doesn't matter who tehy are fighting in the topic. If that other player joins and runs off to fight someone else they'd still lose that two actions per turn.
But if the enemies can't summon a single ally above 50% the enemies pl then it seems not that crazy they'd have to use odd tactics to even have if any hope of victory. As well as with some of Atsuko's examples its been shown even that weaker teams with combined effort can keep up and nearly took out Nasu. If not for Zenkai in taht thread it would have likely ended much different.
Given as well the only time its been used so far didn't seem to have disastrous results and in fact Nasu was on the ropes for a good bit. I'd say there isn't much reason to remove it.
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Hmm... Taking into account Jarvis's points, I'm inclined to agree that there isn't much of a balancing issue here. With LMB as well, there's not many situations where at least one person can't be bare minimum 50%+ of someone's strength, especially with Transformations in the mix.
But no need for a decision to be made just yet, I'm curious of what everyone has to think on this subject!
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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on Feb 26, 2016 21:22:44 GMT -5
I think, for now, it's less of a huge deal. But once people get into midgame, it's a different story. Transformations only start to bubble from a certain point, and a x20 or the like is a big deal considering they come with a higher base PL as well.
I think higher PL players already get enough benefits. Also, think of what it says from an OOC perspective: "Don't even try to make a difference. Your character can't contribute."
And while your group idea is a step in the right direction, I feel that it does not go far enough.
If people want to give higher PL members further benefits, I implore people to look elsewhere than giving such another stark advantage in combat.
I maintain my point that it simply favors high PL members too much.
EDIT:
I just got off work, so now that I'm at a proper computer and not my phone, I hope to expound upon some of my points.
On the subject of transformations, I think my point is pretty clear: Higher base PL along with higher max multipliers means that someone can very easily achieve a much higher level of power already. And this person is likely to have allies as well, so one cannot always count on being able to make up the difference in sheer numbers.
On the matter of OOC Perspective: I mean to say that it is very discouraging. If you're getting a 800k attack to your face you can try and expend some stamina to protect yourself, but you simply leave yourself open to the second attack. You, quite literally, are helpless. And, since you've now expanded stamina to protect yourself from the first attack, you're now in a worse position for the second. And you don't have the benefit of a second action to try and protect yourself more, even at the cost of your dwindling stamina. If you're fighting someone who is double your PL, that second attack is a real issue.
On the subject of other advantages: I'll admit, I'm not sure how to expand upon this point, as I think higher PL members already get enough benefits. However, I think that if the community came together, an alternative could be found.
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I really don't see much of a point to remove it. If your enemies don't even have a ally that equals 51% of the targets power level their is likely gonna be the idea they were going in expecting a bad time. Now keep in mind you only need one ally at 51% to break that power gap and take away their ability to do 2 actions. An its only in effect for the one enemy or ally that has that high pl enough to out match all otehrs. But the second one person joins thats above that pl req they lose it . doesn't matter who tehy are fighting in the topic. If that other player joins and runs off to fight someone else they'd still lose that two actions per turn.
But if the enemies can't summon a single ally above 50% the enemies pl then it seems not that crazy they'd have to use odd tactics to even have if any hope of victory. As well as with some of Atsuko's examples its been shown even that weaker teams with combined effort can keep up and nearly took out Nasu. If not for Zenkai in taht thread it would have likely ended much different.
Given as well the only time its been used so far didn't seem to have disastrous results and in fact Nasu was on the ropes for a good bit. I'd say there isn't much reason to remove it.
Then, I have to question: why even have the rule? If it as simple as someone saying "Hey, my buddy's here, but he's fighting your weaker friend. No more two attacks for you".
And while I do agree with the Lookout topic being a good example, we have to keep in mind: it has been the only RoD.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
Also, ask me about my martial arts school: the Lightning Blade Arts!
Well it's in there because it does have relevance, it does make sense and it ended up not being broken. Those in favor of removing the rule can say that there's only been one RoD, but that's just it; there's only been one. We haven't had enough testing involving it to actually be able to tell whether or not it would be broken.
In terms of Sagas/RoDs, it's much of the same; who is going into that alone? For every other thread, there's no risk of death. You always have the option to escape. Even if you'd rather stand and fight, you don't die and in most cases, I can see people being charitable in allowing your character to stay conscious, if not fight anymore for that thread until healed.
People can't drop a risk of death on top of you without warning, either. So while I understand where you're coming from and I can agree with it on many levels... It's simply far too early to tell whether or not it would be broken and thus require removal. It would require more testing to be able to tell thoroughly. And I would personally be happy to help out with that.
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Post by Jie Shan Lan Dian on Feb 26, 2016 22:16:48 GMT -5
You do make a fair point about it being early to tell, I just think that from a balance perspective it leaves lower PL players with far too little options and higher PL players with too many. I think that, yes, it would be wise to test it some more. But I think we should all understand that it would be a big undertaking, as there'd be, in my opinion, a lot of scenarios to test.
But, I maintain my point that high PL players just have a much higher advantage in-general, and to an extent, we cannot escape that. It is a product of any system with progression and I think we're better off staying with most facets of the system than abandoning it. However, I think that, moving forward, we can always keep an open mind on how to tweak the system. I think that, surely, we can all agree on that.
Hello. I'm Jie Shan and I staff here. Anybody who needs help or wishes to plot is free to contact me on site, Skype, or Discord.
Also, ask me about my martial arts school: the Lightning Blade Arts!
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